HR Vision Podcast #31 – HR Tech evolution and Performance Management ft. Chris Coolen

Ivo:
Hey everyone, and welcome to the HR Vision podcast. I am your host Ivo and every week I'm going to have a conversation that matters about HR. This week I have Chris Coolen with me, welcome Chris, How are you doing?

Chris:
Hi Ivo. Yes thank you good. Very busy. Of course, like all people in the company, so that's a good sign.

Ivo:
Pretty busy keeping yourself busy.

Chris:
Yeah, lot of projects so and yeah currently a lot of people are busy with implementing performance management at start of the year, so that's also a busy period for me in that case. So yes,

Ivo:
I can Imagine, Chris is based in the Netherlands and is an implementation lead consultant and performance management product specialist at fourvision. He has an extensive experience with the HR technology in payroll interfacing as well. So, this should be fun. Alright Chris, you ready. Let's get to it.

Chris:
Of course, yes.

Ivo:
all right.

Chris:
so, start a fire I would say.

Ivo:
start the fire. Okay, let's start from the beginning. Tell us a bit a bit about yourself. You know when you started your career you know a bit of your path until now just a general overview. I know that the career is long already, but generally.

Chris:
I will make it in a small nutshell. So I started working at my 18th the 1st 5-6 years. I worked at a Dutch Bank in a commercial job, so completely Something else. and I was looking for something new and so coincidentally, I rolled into the HR world. and then when I was 25 and then I worked for a large Dutch media company. I worked there for almost 14 years. And during that period I also started studying HR, the two HR studies on the University of applied Sciences, so I did two studies in four years 4 1/2 years. And yeah, I was, I first the 1st 40 years. I really worked on the HR side. Yeah and after that I switched to consultancy. First was 18 years in Yorker World? and since 4 1/2 more than 4 1/2 years. I know work for four vision in the Microsoft D365 world. So in a nutshell.

Ivo:
Yeah alright, what? What made you switch from the HR general part that you were studying and working to the technology side.

Chris:
That was two AI that was not coincidence. I was HR manager so I was responsible for the HR system and payroll systems we had. We worked together with our large partner and yeah the partner came to me and asked if I would join them. So yeah, instead of doing it for one company. I started doing it for many companies. First in the in the Benelux. So the real focus for the company in that in the Oracle world was Benelux and now since I work for fourvision it's yeah mainly globally so it's a it's a big change in that case also. So my language change from Dutch. In mainly English on a daily basis. So that's also the other side of the of the medal.

Ivo:
That's how it happened, okay, and you never looked back so you've been working with technology for a long time for a longer time than probably you worked on the HR general part. You would never go back?

Chris:
No, I started with black screens and green letters, so that was in the AS/400 era. So that's yeah, about 25 years ago. more than that 30 years ago. So yeah, that's really. I saw a real change from as 400 black screen and then the first HR system which was a black screen with white letters. So then already did the. The PCs came up, the desktops because first we had a complete mainframe. It was main framing, so our HR also likes sort of tables in an in an AS400 framework. So yeah, that was not very fancy I have to say. And then the first we changed to the first HR system which then was on a PC which was still a yeah we had to run it on. On really BC wise so we did not have networks and that kind of stuff so we had a PC on your PC. There was installed the hardware and there was yeah your PC was really the HR system of the company. so that was then the first step and then later on in 2000 Uh yeah it changed to really and yeah an HR system which was On the main trail for mainframe, on there no coat on the client. There that was the mentioning that in that in that time. So you get an HR system how it was even more back 1995 or something in that case. But yeah then the first HR system came where you had one install base and you could get you could after the system from different laptops. Or PC'S or whatever? Yeah, so that was that was already an amazing experience and later on it was also no coat on the client so in the first time it was also that you had a lot of data. Still was coming up to your to your PC, Download it and then later on they changed. Everything was in there Yeah kind of cloud or long local area network but yeah really. So I have made the, I've seen it grow from the AS400 system back in the in the 80s and 90s until yeah, currently what we have nowadays in software as a service, so that's a complete yeah another world.

Ivo:
Wow, he's seen it all. You seen it all, yeah.

Chris:
Yeah, so I'm 32 years currently in the HR world and before that about 5-6 years I worked in the commercial area in at a bank.

Ivo:
So and the and from all this experience, you know what, what the what it's like to be an implementation consultant, What do you think keeps ticking the box to you or keep keeps exciting you after all this time?

Chris:
What it's exciting me is in the my getting the most out of the system. I see systems evolving of course, because I'm that long in the area and the small basis that was in in in the past. It has completely changed to a modern HR system which is covering everything from hire to retire. And in the past that was that was only a fraction of what it is today and still yeah. We still have a lot to do, and how do you say that to evolve. To get the best out of the HR software because there's still a lot to how to say that to, to learn and a lot to develop. and that's what's driving me also. so for me also because I was really 30 years on the other side of the of the spectrum, I exactly also know how HR is working, how the processes are going, what you can expect. It's a yeah. It's mostly part of the data is hard, but there's also a lot of soft data, and that's soft data. Like performance management is one of them I think. it is still an area which is, yeah which is still evolving on even on a daily basis.

Ivo:
Do you think I really like that That expression of hard data and soft data. Because I can imagine, And you correct me if I'm wrong, but the beginning of all this of this software’s of these tools began by solving Hard data stuff like a leave and absence for example. and then as it evolved, start developing more tools for the soft data part. like performance management than those things. Do you think that that was the case?

Chris:
Yes, I've seen it myself. Maybe a simple example is the gift on the soft side succession planning. We now nowadays have nice software, with 9-box grid or a 16-box grid. In the past we did the same, but we sat together with the whole team. and then I would say that we put all the key positions or people which we thought were People who could grow in the organization. like the, how do I say that, the high potentials. We were all we did. We did the same but then on paper. and then we discussed them and yeah then you had to make It tried to gather together and in that time, it was not that fancy. Even Excel didn't exist. The first excel was Lotus notes or something like that and what we tried to do was to get it in Lotus notes or in simple forms and put the data in and then it was all manual stuff. So, the real evolving as that now if you put it in the system you get a nice overview of everyone who measured a person In that case, for example if you look at succession planning and then yeah and then the person is directly coming there where you want to have him in in which box or whatever. In the past that was really an action, an manual action. Yeah, we also had a lot of discussion between people before we even spotted a person somewhere in the box manually. And now you can do it based on a questionnaire. You can for example say, okay these questions, and then the outcome means that he's coming there. Still, you can have differences. One person is measuring a person differently than another person. That's always the case. So that's the soft side there, it's not hard. but yeah, it's amazing how that evolved in that kind of software evolved in the last 50 years, and that's really amazing.

Ivo:
Do you think that that's just a small follow up to that? Do you think that evolution was driven by technology itself, was driven by the needs of the customers? Do you think it was mix of it? You know?

Chris:
It's a mix, of course, yeah. Companies try to look at the whole how they say that stack, in HR and then build a system to it which solves the needs of many customers. So yeah, that that's what you see. Also, a system is not. Yeah, every organization is different. Say at least they are different. That's also the case. But yeah. And then it's a way of how to say that make the best out of it. Create the best software which can be used globally or locally, whatever. But every customer should be able to start somewhere. That's yeah, that's still something that's the I think that's the biggest challenge to make software which can be used by every customer which buys it. And I think if you work globally like we do at that, that's the challenge. Make some software which can be used in the states or in Europe, or in the Middle East or in what is it? Asia whatever. That's also, I would say that you have to have your knowledge that you know how the culture is and how the processes are globally. And yeah, that's what I really like on the job. That you work with different worlds and that you really see, and also What is the mature, the matureness of the different customers? Because we have really got three which are really acting on a mature level based on years of experience with also HR systems. But yeah, we have also customers which are changing from like from Excel and really have to make those steps. Yeah, that's also the nice thing to yeah to get people on track. On a higher level, also, using the HR system.

Ivo:
That sounds like exciting for a consultant indeed, because every company like you just said different worlds, you know. coming from different countries, the processes are different. The way they act the way even legal entities and the way they process payroll for example that you have some experience with, it's it differs from different country.

Chris:
if you talk about payroll, yeah, that's something. Even in it can even differ in a country.

Ivo:
So, in a country, yes, exactly okay. You have a lot of experience, obviously with a lot of customers you work with many different customers throughout your career. I'm interested to know like are there. Common challenges, besides of course, trying to learn what you just said. Trying to learn different practices from different customers from different countries. Yeah, are there are other challenges as being in an implementation consultant that's very common.

Chris:
Yeah, the biggest challenge for consultant exchange management. That sounds may be crazy, but yeah, a company is used to work in a certain way. Yeah, and you have to convince the customer that changing the way of working does not mean that the whole process is changing. The only thing is you change the way of working. And getting people how do you say that. Yeah, change management which is very important It's also crucial for your project, but also crucial for getting a satisfied customer.

Ivo:
The customer to use the tools, right?

Chris:
Yeah, exactly, and if it customer is not willing to change because that's mostly. It's all always a challenge. That you get a tough project.

Ivo:
There you go, as simple as that. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's because there's a lack of context? The people making the decision doesn't inform the actual people that will work with the software. Where do you think that problem arises all the time? Why? Why that is?

Chris:
I think that people are hesitating to change to change their way of working and that's really, they used to a certain way of working. Maybe already for 10-15 years. And are we going to tell them that they have to change the way of working. I always ask questions to the customer sometimes. Sometimes if we have that kind of discussion. Yeah, you do it already for 15 years. But did you ever ask yourself? If you, do it already for 15 years on the right way. because you have to also think about okay, can I how do I say that can I improve the way of working by changing process whatever? And people are not mostly are really hesitating to change the way of working because they have people are used to used to certain way of working and not feeling to change.

Ivo:
that's all they know, right? For a long time, for some people, that's all they know for 10-15 years as you said.

Chris:
And therefore you can better have a customer which is working with Excel because they everything What we do is good. Rather than a customer, which it has already an HR system and has to change the HR system has to change the way of changing their work if they have to change their the the way of working. And yeah, that's a much more tough project because change management is a is a big thing.

Ivo:
Yes no that's definitely. How do you? How do you go about you already shared a bit there saying that. Asking why you know, asking, asking people, why did you ever think about how you were doing this process and if it can be improved or not? How do you overcome that challenge? You know, because I guess there's a lot of communication involved that you need to explain that you don't necessarily need to do the same things like you did. You can actually do less steps with a better tool. How? How do you go about changing management?

Chris:
discuss many, many times sometimes until they have the mindset thing. But they get the switch and that that's difficult and sometimes it it's going to work and you succeed. and but yeah there are also project where you don't succeed and yeah, they are really not how do I say that, they're willing to change their way of working. Then they asked to do if yeah what, why? Why are you ending then is in a lot of I would say that enhancements on the system which will not be how they say that benefit the system and that's. That's and also benefits process. Yeah. Off course I have many years of experience are all also on the other side, so I know how it works. But the fact is you have to really be eager to to change if you start an implementation of a new HR system. If you're not willing to change it will not be a success.

Ivo:
It's also a mindset, right?

Chris:
It's really mindset, mostly it's mindset. It's not mostly. It's how to say that. Of course, sometimes we miss functionality. That's it. That's why we strong and also in helping the customer to solve this kind of kind of issues. So, but yeah, the fact is, you have to be willing to change and. And that's yeah, that's the big biggest challenge. And where customers are really okay? We take it as a jumps. Yeah, , very easy project. So, I will say they eat out of your hand, but that's something. Also based on how you communicate with the customer, how you bring it. But the possibilities are. And it is not always going right or going left or going straight. But you can also so you can go left. You can go straight. You can go right if you go left. These are. These are the consequences if you go right away then these are the consequence. If go and tell me what you want and it's not always black or white, so that's yeah, that's also and of course, yeah, for that you have to know how processes are really running in HR and also yeah you have to know what the what the software can and can't. So that's also something which is important.

Ivo:
definitely. OK, if we move if we move towards the performance management. As I said in the beginning, you are the, performance management product specialist here. People don't know exactly what it does. What it is this this web app give us an overview and what do you think people can benefit more from it?

Chris:
Yeah, it's a. It's managing your process of goal setting, behaviours, all kinds of things within the performance cycle. Your yearly appraisal process, that's what it can manage. It's also an enabling succession planning. A key positions, that kind of stuff. so who's on the key position? What? What happens if that person is leaving at the risk of leaving that kind of things which you put in a 9-box grid 16-box grid, we support both. and also kind of workforce planning. So based on rating people and a anual review that you get in merit increase and that merit increases is also in the system. So based on, Let me say you have a rating. Three that means you get a 3% increase. It's automatically done. It's giving you a merit increase the manager can check it can approve it or can change. It can give a higher percentage or lower percentage whatever. as long as he stays in his budget. and based on that in the end also of products. Increases uploaded into your HR system and if you have also payroll interface, it's automatically generating a new payslip with the new cell. So that's a little bit in a nutshell. What performance management can do and performance management is very flexible because we have customers which have a complete different way of working than others, and due to the fact that we have a kind of how to say that. The kind of a layer where you can add things in or things out even you're able to build your own process. In a flexible way and most performance systems have a kind of certain way of working that the in in our in our way of working. It's really, we have kind of layer and in that layer you have different possibilities to add to that layer or exclude from that layer so you get really you're the process as you use it within your organization, and even what we see is customers are. Starting with performance management, I have a kind of performance management way of working. They see our system and they said hey we're going to change our process because this is much better on this and this and this. We incorporate that and the process becoming more mature for the customer. So, it's very flexible. Still, we are out of improving that every day, every day, every day, every month, I have to say so. We're really looking into okay what could be good improvement which based on the market but also based on feedback of our current customers. Because we really get good feedback from our customers in the way, Hey this is working that way if it would this way it could improve the product and also our process. Could you look at it? Yeah, that's really. It's really amazing and a positive way. It's not really from this doesn't work for us. Now it we, we work with the system. However, if maybe if he could do some adjustment, it would even work better and that we're going to look okay, Is that something only for this customer? Is that something which many customers could use based on that one? And if you say okay, this is really an enhancement for the product which benefit a lot of our customers at that we have really tried to get it into the system and also to discuss with the customer who prodded in how the best could fit for them and 222 how to send to engage them even in how we how we are building things. And that's really nice because I have a lot of good discussions also with customers to already using the product to make the product better based on enhancements they come with and. And yeah, that's really working well.

Ivo:
Yeah, I remember. For example, we had Jag some weeks ago, he implemented performance measurement for element I guess, yeah you were involved in the in the project.

Chris:
Yeah, it's not done. But since then I'm involved in the project.

Ivo:
Yeah, but what I was about to say is that it can give so much data for the company in terms of forming cycle, in terms of those of those elements around the employees that it's very flexible and at the same time provides valuable data for the company. To understand in terms of succession planning of performance cycles and those things, right?

Chris:
Exactly.

Ivo:
the tool you said is flexible enough that adapts to the customer process I think, I guess everybody listening it's a big plus.

Chris:
I did not meet any customers where we. We're very simple. We had a workshop last week at a. And I would say that aspirant customer, a prospect yeah that's yeah that's the word yeah the prospect they had a complete different process completely and never seen kind of this process is how they would manage it and it's the first time it's they called feedforward for example not feedback but feedforward and based on the workshop we had. We and also the requirements document we got from him, how they would like to have that process we set up a modest blocker for the customer, but we've got that and show them okay in this case. With the software we have and this could work in this way. We showed it and they were really amazed that that process which was really different from the standard could almost 95% we there was still some things enhancements to do to really manage it, but for 95% now even more 99% even the process fits in our software. And they were really amazed about the fact that about the flexibility of the software, and two days later they were our customer. So That means that we really have a yeah built something, which is a which suits almost every need. Is a mature product. I will still make it even more mature with extra enhancements and more flexibility even in it. But that there's also risk. Make it flexible. That means you have a lot of buttons do to enable disable that can also work in another way. But yeah, the flexibility we built in has made it a really good product which can be used almost for every customer all over the world.

Ivo:
That's amazing. Let me just ask you one more thing about this. You know where? Where can I? Where can a company start with performance measurement? You say let's, let's say that a company implements the web app. You know what is required to set up? How do you know you know what's what?

Chris:
what is required is that your HR system is set up that you have your agent HR data available because we are seeing all the data which is the organizational data and all the employee data between.

Ivo:
Let me let me stop you there that that system needs to be dynamics, Microsoft?

Chris:
It could work, maybe on another system. We already checked that in the past, but yeah, it could fit. But then yeah, you have to build an integration between the app and another HR system. But that's not. Yeah We are really Microsoft,it works on D 365 but also on finance and operations HR so it works on both sides, so that's your base requirement.without you can't stop performance arrangement if you did not implement HR now. So if you already say okay we had a customer, which say can we not already go live with performance manage before we have our HR system live? Yeah, that's not possible because yet there's no data and because there's a complete integration with the data from these 365, which is according to roles users. Data all that kind of stuff. Salary, organization, management data that's all coming from D 365 so it's only you have to. Well how do you say that? One stop shop where you there you add your HR data and your performance management system is using that HR data to manage your HR before your performance management process.

Ivo:
Okay so if you have that data set up, if you have the central system, the system and dynamics, once you get into the performance app to the performance web app, do you need to set skills inside there or that that data already is coming from the central system? Or is the performance? Do you need to do some work?

Chris:
Yeah, of course you have to create. If you make use of a predefined goals you have to set your goals. You have to create your PDR documents so your performance review documents. And tell what you want to have in it, because it's kind of building blocks which are in the performance document where you can say: oh this building block I want in and that not that that that if I use mobilities I want to have mobility's and if I don't use skills I don't put skills in. So I make them available in the performance document. So it's a kind of yeah building blocks from where you build the whole performance document which you use. But yeah. Most data integrated however you have to choose if you a Kirby we have the skills in the performance management app because we have also a skill mapping key positions succession planning which is using skills. All that kind of stuff and we did not currently integrate it with the 365, but really because you use all the data in the system you can add the data in the system. Because also a person can update their skills in the performance management based on the goals he has achieved. And then you want to do that in one way and you don't have to go to HR and put your update your skills so everything you want in that area. So that's how we built the same certificates in that kind of stuff we also have an integration, with certificates of course from the 365 yeah. some others say that parts we do not Integrate from the 365. We will do it in the app.

Ivo:
OK, but because it's simply it's more stable probably and works better?

Chris:
yeah, but it's also because you use the data in the app and you update the data from the app. Otherwise you have to go back or you. You can still maybe get the data in D365, but you have also looked at it. Is there any added value to copy the data back to D 365? For the HR process over there, so that's something while we don't do that for some areas?

Ivo:
Okay, that's pretty clear. I'm already taking a lot of your time today, so I have only one more question. I know, you're pretty busy. You've seen it's like we said at the beginning of the episode, you've seen a lot of stuff. You've seen it all in in HR. I'm just interested to know if there's any you know interesting trends that you anticipate. Where do you think this market will evolve to? Are there signs that you feel like more confident in saying I think we're going to move more towards this way to the soft data that we just we spoke about what? What is your feeling about that?

Chris:
Yeah, It's a difficult question you asked me here. I don't have a what is it

Ivo:
a ready answer?

Chris:
That's right. And yeah, I cant directly. Look forward into the future of course. But yeah, the fact is that customers are really looking for a lot of integration. I think, the main thing. And of course there are a lot of trends like learning management, that kind of stuff.

Ivo:
automation and all that.

Chris:
Yeah. And I think the most the most, it's not a trend I really say it's something which is already for a long time there it's really automation integration. So yeah get everything integrated so you only have one single point of entrance where you put in the data, and you don't have to put it in three other systems but it's automatically and that still is a area where still a lot as it can be achieved and we can make big steps because yeah and yeah. See also other things of course, which were, say, OK, this would be good that Microsoft invest in this kind of things, but yeah. On the other side, I hope not, because then we can do it. But yeah, there's still some lack in in some areas where Microsoft should, how do you say that could take some action and improve the product?

Ivo:
Correct.

Chris:
but yeah, trends.the fact is every year there's a new trend, so yeah, and it's I'm not.

Ivo:
Let's be practical about it.

Chris:
Yeah exactly

Ivo:
Okay, alright well from mainframes to desktops and laptops after that then is the cloud then the mobile you've seen it all? Chris, thank you so much exactly. Thank you so much for being here. This was a very interesting conversation for me and hopefully for the listeners to. Did you enjoy it?

Chris:
I enjoy it. Yeah, time flies. I have to say.

Ivo:
Time flies indeed.

Chris:
And when we started, I think again I talk half an hour. But yeah, we're ready.

Ivo:
Yeah, I think you like this. You like this talk and I enjoyed it very much. I hope everybody listening out there did enjoy it too. Again Chris, thank you for your time. Thank you for being here. I hope you keep doing this for at least another 30 years. Who knows?

Chris:
I don't think so, but yeah.

Ivo:
well, I hope you do and we keep having people like you sharing your expertise. This was great. Thank you so much. Have a great week people listening out there. Stay safe. I'll see you next time.

Chris:
Bye.