HR Vision Podcast #33 – Great Resignation or Great Transformation? ft. Max Schiffelers

Ivo:
Hey, everyone, and welcome to the HR Vision podcast. I'm your host Ivo, and every week, I'm going to have a conversation that matters about HR. This week, I have Max Schiffelers with me. Welcome Max, how are you doing?

Max:
Thanks Ivo. Great to be here. This was hanging in the air for quite a time. Now, I think you asked me about this, like a year ago for me to come onto the podcast. But I finally felt comfortable with a topic that I want to talk about. So I'm very happy to be here Ivo.

Ivo:
You had a lot of time to prepare then, Max!.

Max:
That's right!

Ivo:
All right. Yeah, Max and I worked closely together. And I'm really happy that he's here with us today. He started as an intern at FourVision, moved on to online marketing specialist and is now a talent experience implementation consultant, a man of many talents it seems.

Today, he is here to share his views on a topic that has been picking his interest for some time now: the Great Resignation. Probably a lot of people already heard about this term. So it's a lot to talk about. So let's get to it. Are you ready, Max?

Max:
Sure, yes.

Ivo:
Okay! Let's start like we always start. Give us a small introduction about yourself what you've been doing.

Max:
Sure, thank you Ivo. So yeah, like you already said, I joined FourVision, initially, as an intern, I think that was three years ago, right before the pandemic. And then I did my graduation thesis, and I stayed at FourVision. First in the online marketing department. But then later on, I made the move to the implementation consultant. And that's what I've been doing now. I think since January last year. So that's more than a year now. I really like it here. I really like working with customers from all around the world. You know, meeting different cultures and stuff.

Ivo:
All right. I don't think I ever asked you this question, actually. What made you make the switch? Was it a need from the company, or you just wanted to contact with customers?

Max:
I joined the marketing department, and I still really enjoy marketing. But I guess, at some point, because at marketing it seems like it's very external marketing. And in essence, it is. But it felt at some point, I mean, you're always working with the same team, with the same faces. I mean, I like that. But I guess making the move to a consultant, you're meeting new people every day. Which is something that I really enjoy. Meeting different people from different organizations.

And then it's also a great way to look into into their HR processes. Because well, every organization is different. Of course, they all have their own business structures and the way they handle things internally with HR. So I really like this role, where I can basically have a look at all of the other, or at least look at other companies around the world and see how they are doing with their HR.

Ivo:
Definitely. Your degree is on marketing, right? It's on the marketing area. Did you imagine ever to touch on HR?

Max:
No, actually no. HR was never really on my list. But I think a lot of people in a lot of different business organizational, departments, it's not something that they studied for, I mean you just roll into it.

It's also quite funny that you're doing some sort of studies for marketing and communications, and then you end up in HR. It's not something that I thought about beforehand, but I guess it's just something that you roll into. I think a lot of people with their current organization, with their current job, they didn't study for it, but things are going naturally; How you're performing, how you are you doing within an organization and then also the opportunities with an organization as well.

So I guess working with FourVision, of course it is an HR organization. So naturally, I mean, you're getting out there in the HR field more and more. So at some point it seemed like a logical move to me. So I guess that's how I rolled into the HR business.

Ivo:
Yeah, life happens I guess. Just before we go to the topic at hand, today that we're going to discuss. Just one more thing. So people know. You are a talent experience implementation consultant. So you're working basically with the recruitment part, with the recruitment services that we provide. Specially with our partner Phenom. Can you can you give a glimpse of what you do with the partnership and with customers? Just in a nutshell.

Max:
Yeah, sure. So different organization, of course they have their recruitment. Questions, I would say, or at least the processes that they want to have improved. And what I'm doing is I'm working as a consultant for Phenom is a recruitment tool based on AI. What it basically is, is a career site platform, with some AI functionality as well. And it really is built to get the most out of the candidate experience.

So for instance, let's say you're a big organization, and you get a million open applicant applicants every year. Even though you have a very big recruitment team, it still takes a lot of work, a lot of effort to go through all of those resumes. So for instance, what you can do with the with the Phenom platform, is that it automatically gives the different resumes a grade based on how well they fit at a specific job. And with that grade, the fit-score let's say, and what you can do what you can see then as a recruiter. So for instance, let's say you have an online marketing management job open. And let's say 300 people apply. What the AI software does, is it gives you a quick overview of which candidates are the best fit for the job. So it saves a lot of time for the recruiter.

I mean, yes, as a recruiter, as a good recruiter, you're still going to take a look at every resume, because you want to make sure that you would give everybody a fair chance. But also you want to you want to make sure that you are not missing out on any talent. But the Phenom software really allows you to use use the best of AI and see how it allows you to fill those jobs better.

Ivo:
Okay, interesting. All right. I think that's clear. Let's then move to this. This big topic. It's a big talk in thethe last months to couple of years. Which is the great resignation, it's a big name, right. The great resignation. Sounds like a movement type of thing. I don't know. You know, tell us what it is and why did it pick your interest in the past?

Max:
So the great resignation. I think when I first heard about it was during the first wave of the pandemic. So that was 2020, around the spring, around the summer. And yeah, like you said, the big resignation. So there's, like this big theme around it. So that somehow mysterious as well. But at some point, or at least at the beginning of the pandemic, people were used to going to the office. Five days a week, everyday stuck in their commute, they would go by car or train or whatever, but they everyday had the same rhythm. So they would go to work early, and then it would go to work, or they would they would return to home late.

But I guess what happened with the great resignation is that somehow a lot of people got tired of it. I think also with COVID, a lot of people came to realize that well, of course their children were home because their schools were closed, they had to take care to take care of their children, as well as their family. So I guess you're getting more of a family feel. I mean, it takes a pandemic to you know, really appreciate what you what you got in your family. So I think that made people think: "Why am I doing this job? Why am I leaving at seven o'clock and returning at seven in the evening? I'm not seeing my children two hours too often, only on the weekend. Is there some other way for me to still do my job while seeing my loved ones more?"

So then, of course, with the pandemic, it became clear that by use of technology, for instance by using Teams to Zoom. It is possible to work with people all around the world. You don't have to be in the office every workday, or at least for a lot of office jobs, I would say. So I guess people just realized that there was another way of doing it. So that made people leave to organizations that did offer the things that they were looking for. A better work-life balance, being able to work at home, doing the same work and less hours, really because you're not not commuting.

So actually, what the big resignation did is, think the amount of people leaving their current employees rose with 50%. This trend was happening for more than a year. So it's pretty big when all of a sudden more than 50% of people leaving, it's increasing. To bring up some alarm bells with organization all around to around the world. I think that's also also combined with the great name, the big resignation. That's what caused really the hype around it. Because I think at some point, like every major news article, news source was talking about it. It was a really big thing in HR. It still is.

Ivo:
So the name, great resignation, comes from this enormous amount of people during COVID, leaving their companies basically. Because they suddenly realized that there's more life beyond their jobs. And, and they wanted to spend more time with their families. It was only it was only that it was also kind of a cut with traditional type of work. Going to the office, like you said, seven to seven or six to six. Do you think that also tried to be a movement to change things at jobs, that businesses that they look a bit more into their people and taking care of them? Do you think?

Max:
Yeah, I think a lot of people also said: Instead of thinking about the great resignation, think about the great transition. So currently it is people switching to other jobs, because they have more options there, a better work-life balance. But it gets organizations that are finding out too late. Well, they're kind of in this position where they see their employees leaving.

Also, they're being forced by the market to do something. That's always the thing with change. I mean, there are some organizations that are quick to adapt. And then of course, you get the laggards as well. So at some point, almost every organization is also offering this.

But I still remember, pre-COVID, at FourVision we've always had this culture of working from home, it was never really a problem to work from home. And also because the headquarters are in the Netherlands, but also a lot of employees didn't come to the office very often because they would live abroad. So it's very natural for FourVision really to to already work with this. But I've worked with organizations in the past, I think you also have Ivo, where it was mandatory to go to the office, because they would think that if you're working from home, the thought was that you would do nothing. You would just do laundry or something.

Ivo:
I still see this actually in my home country in Portugal, like businesses flourish. During the pandemic, people were working from home. And now that everything is kind of fading away everybody has mandates to go to the office back again, and people are struggling a bit with it. Look, I just did my job perfectly during these two years from home, I just want some more flexibility. I'm not saying that I'm not going to the office anymore, but I want some more flexibility and businesses are struggling to adapt to that request, I think.

This is a generalization, of course. But I see it more in the southern Southern European countries, for example. I see that it's hard to change that culture. Like if you're not at the office. You are not really working. You know. But a follow-up question to what you said. What what do you think is the impact that this great resignation can have on on businesses? I guess, being harder to find talent, if you don't allow that flexibility? What do you think of that?

Max:
Yeah. So you would see organizations that fail to see this trend and fail to adapt to it quickly. You know, they're losing their employees. I mean when you're losing your talents, you're getting in a situation where it's also very hard to attract new talent, because you're not able to offer things that your potential employees want. So let's say you're moving on to a new job, but you already worked a job where you are working from home for some days in a week. I think a lot of people realized that they actually liked it.

So when you're applying for a job within a new organization, it's not only about the regular benefits such as salary and then vacation days. But also, is there a possibility to work from home? Because I guess it's very important for a lot of people. And I was also one of those people because before the pandemic, I went to the office every day. And now after the pandemic, I'm like "Why?". I mean, it doesn't make any sense. I can go, I mean, it's fine at the office, it really is. I mean, there are some some people there. Some colleagues, you can, of course, some small talk, and you can quickly interact with them. I think that's one of the pros of being at the office.

But then at the same time, what you could also do is maybe, for instance, with your with your team, you make agreements or something. So saying let's meet every Monday or Friday, or maybe every Wednesday, so you can just do the things or for instance, like meetings and stuff like that, but then the focus time and concentration time, for me personally, I'm better off doing it at home, because I'm less distracted there.

Ivo:
Yeah, I think that's important to say, because I'm like you. I'm more focused at home, I feel that but there's people the opposite. There's people who are really missing the office, and they work that they're at their best when they're at the office. So there's both worlds here. But it is a trend that a lot of people realize that I can be productive at home, I don't need to, to waste the time of commuting, because that's a problem for a lot of people, like it's some for it's for some people, it's like an hour, an hour and 15 an hour 30 even in big cities. And that's time. That's valuable time that you gain back. And if it doesn't impact your work, it's just natural that you're going to have a lot of talent asking that from companies, right.

Max:
Yeah. And I think also at the same time, the great resignation is not only about the ability to work from home, but I guess it's also about whether or not you're feeling appreciated at your current employer. So let me give you this out of the blue example. But for instance, let's say if a stranger asked you to fold their clothes, I mean, if you're a good person, you're gonna say yes. Just a random example.

But let's say someone on the street asked you to do something for them. I mean, it's fair to say, Yeah, sure, why not? But then when when I asked you a third or fourth time, you're saying "No, do it yourself." But I guess when one of your siblings or one of your parents - someone close to you, someone that you really care about, is asking you things, you just do it because you love them. I think the same thing goes with your employer. You know, if you really feel the appreciation of your employer, I mean, I'm not saying the love, but it's like, it's a professional relationship, right. So if you are feeling that you're being appreciated by your employer, chances are the feeling is likewise, and you're you ought to do more for that same employer.

So when your boss is asking you to do the same task for the maybe the 12th day in a row, when you're not really feeling attached to your current employer, at some point you're thinking "No, this is not something that I want to do anymore. I hate this job, maybe I need to look for something else." But I guess, if you are really attached to your employer, you are willing to run the extra mile, you're willing to put in some extra effort. And this is also of course, because on the other side, you you will be thanked by the employer as well, they would really say thank you, not only in words, but also maybe in a compensation or something. I think that the feeling is always mutual with these sorts of things. So it's not only the work life balance, but also the appreciation that you're getting from your employer.

Ivo:
Yeah, I think you're right. Do you think there's also a factor for this great resignation, beyond those two? That is, people realizing what's really important in their lives, and realizing how much time they were spending at work. Do you think another factor is "I want to do something that I really love"? Do you think that's that's also came into the equation for the great resignation?

Max:
Yeah, that's a good one. I also read a story about an investment banker in New York, and he quit his job to become an ice cream salesman. Just standing on the streets selling icecream. I mean, if that's your passion, really go for it because you're getting way more energy from that job. Even though it pays less, but you're doing something that you really enjoy. So it gives you more joy, so naturally makes your life happier. And I think we'll be seeing over the past few months/years, we've seen that with this labor market is really possible to make that career switch to something that you really feel like doing.

Let's imagine this: 10-15 years ago during the financial recession. I mean, no way you would quit your job to do something that was not really working. It didn't make any sense to switch jobs if you weren't able to find a new job. But it gets now with this tight labor market, it really is a buyers market. So really, it's the market for the employee rather than the employer. So the employee can set the boundaries, or at least they can ask for a good pay, they can ask for working from home. And I guess when things are going less well in the economy, at some point, employers are first and more demanding to their to the employees. That makes sense to me.

Ivo:
Yeah, definitely. Do you think this is reality, this is is not is not something that we're just talking about? This is happening, a lot of people are quitting their jobs looking for more for themselves then for the employers needs or whatever. So how do you think out? How can businesses navigate this? This trend? You know, how can I can they face this trend? Is it enough to give flexibility to employees to work remotely? Or have kind of a hybrid situation? What what do you think are the main things that businesses can do to navigate their strength?

Max:
Yeah, I think the benchmark ready now for office jobs is remote working, or at least in the area where I live in. So in the Netherlands, or in Western Europe, that's really the benchmark now. Sp if an organization is not offering that, naturally, a lot of potential candidates are going to turn you down, or at least they are not going to apply, because they're not interested in their job, because they want to have a better work-life balance and spend some more time with their family. But I guess there are also some other trends that can or at least some other ways for employers to get their name out there. So I think, first, what you what you can do as an employer as well is, for instance, work on your career site.

You know, if you think about the career site as a marketing tool for your organization, or for the careers department of your organization. So I think over the past few years, it was always been as an organization, you would have your website, and what you would have done was a small section of your website dedicated to careers. That will be for instance, the organization name slash careers, and then you will have a one pager that was filled with jobs, he saw some job categories to the left. And that's it. I mean it was very primitive to put it that way.

Over the past few years, marketing also came to to recruitment. And for instance, with a career site, it's now possible to put the emphasis on showing what your organization can do to the potential candidates. So if you have an entire website capable of showing everything about your organization. What you stand for, maybe something about your benefits, something about your culture, maybe about programs that you're running for, to attract students, or maybe veterans.

So a career site basically gives organizations the chance to really put their name out there. It's like... I wouldn't say a big advertisement, because it's more complex But it's a great way to show off what you stand for, as an organization, or at least as an employer, and persuades the potential candidates to work for you. So I guess career sites are something that can really help our organization to attract top talent.

But that's the first part, of course, because anybody can attract them. But the hard part is, of course, keeping them. That's the topic for the podcast for today. So you need to also be looking into ways to make your employees feel more comfortable. So that's, of course, not only tools, but I guess, if you're thinking tools-wise, for instance, take a look at your onboarding process. There are some onboarding tools out there that can really help your new hires to feel welcome at an organization. And research has shown times and times that new employees that had a good onboarding are more likely to stay at your organization, they are working better. So really puts an emphasis on your your onboarding and other ways to retain talent within your organization.

Ivo:
By the way, we have a lot of articles on our website about it and and it's really fascinating when you look into the data. And it sounded like a post to our website, but for people to understand there are a lot of things that you can do, small things that you can do to get an onboarding process. Assiging buddies, having everything ready on the first day, having the couple first weeks already planned for the new employee, are all things that can help with people feel welcome from the first day. And that feeling right at the beginning is so important and data shows that all around.

So yeah, I don't know if you if you agree with me, but maybe also like internal communication tools like teams, Slack, those those types of tools that can keep people connected, because even if you work more remotely, those are the things that keep you connected and know about the company and what is happening. Do you agree?

Max:
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Especially now with the great resignation, people are demanding to work more remotely. And if you're working remotely, something that ought to happen is that communications are being distorted, or at least there are going to be less communications because you know really have that coffee corner anymore. That you would usually at the office, just chat with your colleagues. But yeah, the tools are very important. So not only in a formal way, not only use your tools to talk about business, but also maybe every now and then, set up a small five minute call with a colleague. Ask how they are doing, what projects they're working on. So that the stills allow you to stay in touch with the organization.

And also, for a new employee, of course, when he or she joins the organization. It's like you said the example that you gave about the buddies, it seems very childish, but it's so effective, because if you have nobody to go to within those first few weeks, you're going to feel cut off the group or something. I mean, it's like you're swimming in the ocean on your own. So you're asking for help, but nobody's there to help you. So I guess yeah, this systems, so not only the tools, but also stuff like like buddies, and like a real plan for an onboarding that really helps to maintain your new employees. And once they're finally into the organization, then they could actually be very productive for the organization as well.

Because, of course, in the onboarding period, for an organization it's not really cost effective, because the first investment is those first few weeks or months, and employees that are able to earn two are very much or at least are a lot of money for your organization. So it's very important within those first few weeks to make that employ new employee feel motivated.

Ivo:
Feel part of the team. Definitely.

Alright, now looking towards the future. What do you see? What do you see is coming from this, we think it's gonna, it's just gonna be the numbers are going to be bigger, there will be more and more people are realizing this? Of course, we're talking about this, it's mostly on Western countries that is happening because there are opportunities, and we live in Western countries, and we are very appreciative of that there is a variety of possibilities. But do you think the trend is gonna disseminate to other countries as well? What do you see coming in the future about the great resignation?

Max:
Yeah, I think the trend is, of course, it's spreading off into other countries, also in Asia and Africa. And really everywhere where there's a lot of demand for labor, at least where there's more demand for labor than labor available. So you know, in that in a buyer's market. If you're an employee there, you're lucky because you're able to, to ask for out of your, of your workplace. But I guess then also at the same time, of course, because this is a wave big resignation. I think, at some point every organization or maybe almost any organization will adapt to the new way of working.

So at some point, 80% or 90% of the of the office jobs, you're able to work from home. So guess at some point, it is going to slow down naturally, because well the trend is there. So well, flexible will be the new norm. And then of course, organizations are going to be competitive on other things. And what the next trend is we're not sure about it yet. Maybe it's just something I think also with the pandemic, what it shows over the past few past a lot of ongoing trends, they were accelerated heavily.

So the great resignation is also one of those trends that you know, made sure that be accelerated that really set off because a lot of organizations were already working with tools like Teams and Zoom and stuff like that. But during the pandemic there was a massive rush on these tools. Everybody wanted to get Zoom and Teams. So I mean, once once this is over, there will be another trend and what that trend will be, we don't know it yet.

Ivo:
That's for that's for the future for sure. Max, thank you so much for your time. I don't know if you have anything else that you would like to mention in terms of this topic. But if you don't, I really appreciate your time. I was a really nice conversation to have. I hope you enjoyed it.

Max:
Thank you Ivo. It was great to be here, I'm looking forward to the next one. Maybe next year, or the year after.

Ivo:
Come on, you cannot leave me hanging for a couple of years!

Max:
Oh you want me to be on the show within a few weeks. I don't know if I have the topics to talk about Ivo.

Ivo:
OK, OK! Well keep reading your books, keep paying attention to the trends and maybe we'll book another one in a year from now.