HR Vision Podcast #26 – An HR Technology retrospective ft. Geert Jansen

Ivo:
Hey everyone, and welcome to the HR Vision podcast. I'm your host, Ivo, and every week I'm going to have a conversation that matters about HR.

So for the second episode of the season I have with me a very special guest. They are all special, but this one has been with us for some time. I have with me here, Geert Jansen.

Welcome Geert. How are you?

Geert:
Yeah, thank you Ivo. I'm fine today.

Ivo:
Good! good here it is a Senior Consultant at FourVision and if not the is certainly one of the most experienced members of our team. He's been with FourVision for 11 years and I'm sure he has a lot of stories over the years. Is that true Geert?

Geert:
That's an understatement. I think Ivo. So yeah, there are a lot of stories that I can tell and that we can drown in. But yeah, of course, I started indeed 11 years ago now. And was the first official employee of the company. And then I saw everything grow and it was. Yeah, it was really a roller coaster of all things.

And each year we had different topics. We had different challenges. That was very nice to join that and to see that happen. So that was a big adventure, of course.

Ivo:
Yeah, this is already promising. I think it should be fun.

Let's start then from the beginning, from yourself. Give us a bit of an introduction about you, where'd you come from, what was your experience until you joined FourVision?

Geert:
Yeah, now really. From the background, I have a military background. I also worked in logistics. I was a logistics manager just to give you a high-over of what my experience is. And from the logistics part I get in contact with ERP systems and I find that very interesting. So I did some logistics implementations with the ERP systems and after that, I moved from the logistics into IT. So I joined the company that I was working with to implement logistic systems at our company at that time, and then I was joining that partner to move into the world of Microsoft and working actually with the products.

So there I had my experience with more the logistics, some financial parts of that because those are working close together as well, so that is where, I think now almost 15 years ago, the history of my experience in the Microsoft World started. Around 15 years ago.

Ivo:
Alright, so HR was never like a big focus of your life or like your career path was never like, it was more on the tech side. You got fascinated by the ERP and those kind of things, and then just slowly move to FourVision, to the HR tech side right?

Geert:
Yeah. I was a manager in logistics as well. As a manager of course I was a manager from let's say 50-100 employees. So then also, for me was very interesting to see. OK how was that HR doing right? How could that support the people that are working in logistics and in the warehouse, how we can get more out of them? That's also something. Because those are valued at it's value for your company. So that's also what I recognized. That people can easily leave the company etc. So you should focus on that HR part as well.

So it was also always fascinating for me to see and to support that from an HR perspective to try and get people in, and let them stay in the company, and try to improve them. Let the people develop in that logistics part. So there was always a connection with HR of course.

Then I had the opportunity, and I was contacted by recruitment company to see if I was interested in not only working with the partner that is doing logistics, that was doing finance in the food branche. So then I was asked to see if it's feasible for me and if it's nice to go to FourVision. And that was a complete other world. But what I found attractive. It was a complete other discipline and it was focusing on one specific discipline. I worked in several things like logistics. Then I had some area and activities on the finance part.

But when you have one module, and of course that module is talking to other modules as well, and you should be interfacing to some of them. But what I found interesting is to focus on that, just that one specific area and try to specialize in that. And still as of today, I keep learning, and our spectrum of products is growing. They have changed through time. So it's always challenging to work in only that specific part, like HR. With the timesheet plus product that we had on the side, and then things changed in the Microsoft platform and now we are working more on the web apps, that is part of a bigger spectrum of the HR world that we are creating. For example.

Ivo:
Did you have that expectation about HR? What was your expectation about HR? Because the feeling that I have is that, for a lot of people, when they started, they thought it was like a small part of the business. You know, it's probably not that complex, but it is right?

Geert:
Yeah, I can remember we had some partners where Bert and Peter were trying to get connected to in the company. And we were trying to get HR higher in the tree as I would call it. But it was very difficult to get acknowledgement from the partners at that time, within the Microsoft world, to get involved in HR. Bert was specifically on Sales. He was trying to get into those companies, into those partners, to see if they could give us a business. Then we could mean something for each other. And in the beginning years it was very hard; A tough cookie to crack.

And after a while, we saw that changing. And those partners that were keeping some distance to HR. "No, it will never be something important." - and now we see the same partners that we talked with ten years ago are now also focusing on that HR. But I think that the D365 Human Resources application, it also launched it. And it made it more specific and more special to prove for Microsoft that they were investing in that specific part.

So I think also, that the companies; the organizations worldwide. They are also acknowledging "OK the people that we have is our value" and that should be supported and given more attention than it was 10-15 years ago. We saw that all change. In all the HR-specific papers and newsletters, etc. It was all very generic, but now you see on development, on succession planning, with all kind of things on that. It's much more important, and we saw that together at FourVision - we saw that changing from being not very important, I think, to a very important topic of using that ERP in full, in combination now with web apps and also a lot of companies as an ISV, were also diving into that gap to see and to enrich that more so that everything in a wider perspective can support a company. In full and an organization in full; worldwide with multiple sides and being there in global organizations, I think it's very useful to have these kind of support. And the things where we are busy with their until now.

Ivo:
Interesting, yeah, we've seen some some of that before. We talk to other people, seeing that shift right. Between administrative HR to a more strategic. Companies value it more. Do you have any memories of like 11 years ago when you joined the company? What were customers interested in? I the tool, if they were at all, or were you hearing tough comments about HR like, "Yeah, we're just doing this because the company wants to do this." Do you remember any funny stories from those times?

Geert:
I remember the first customers where I where I was working. We worked on the Leave functionality, so that's where it started. Some topics were taken out of that and leave was one of them, because that was indeed, I think that the topic that is that was 10-15 years ago, the most important one right. To have some leave entitlement. Not having that cafeteria with all kind of things that you could organize and were provided to the employees. So leave was at that point, I think, a basic thing that people did start to try and automate. More than only having an Excel sheet. That was, at that time, the change.

Leaving those excel sheets and having it all registered all over the organization, moving into one big integrated system. With ERP. I also saw at that time, in the beginning when I started, that we were at organizations within education, that we saw that they were using, let's say 80 applications from Excel to all kinds of other topics. The number was given by the organization, to keep ahold of all the things related to employees and everything that was happening in the organization. So that was a huge thing that I thought indeed, OK, yeah. What is the world where we are now in? And how is that going to look like and what can we do as an organization to improve that, and to get that more integrated? Because everything that your human resources are doing, are impacting of course value in your organization, so that's all very important I think to maintain all the employee data. For projects, or for leave or for salary, compensation and benefits. What it should be applicable for.

That was in the beginning, so it was a transformation. What I saw in the beginning from Excel sheets to the proper leave functionality, where all kind of things could be added to the functionality to take into account for your calculations, to where we are now. With a lot of dimensions and with a lot of interesting things happening on each and every functionality in the HR world I think. From leave too Payroll, because payroll was also a huge change.

And from the start we had our leave functionality and also we had our payroll, where we defined an interface that is communicating within the registration, within the the system where all the employee data is in, to export that and to interface that to a proper local payroll system that was also. So that leave in combination with the payroll in the beginning, those were our topics. Our major functionalities where we started with and with which we expanded. And now we have a broader thing. Let's say all the disciplines in HR are covered at the moment in our complete solution.

Ivo:
All right. I'm curious, you know, within all these years, you've seen a lot of customers. Of course you are a senior consultant at the company. You've been in contact with customers more in the support side, I believe. Do you think all those changes all these transformations over the years they came? Do you think it was a mix of a push between what we were doing and what the customers were needing? It was also like. The new things that the work life needed, more digitalization, so they needed to have a centralized database. Where do you think that transformation came from? It was gradual, I believe. But do you think we boost it as well? Do you think like the customer needs also evolved through the years, that we needed to support it more? What is your feeling about that?

Geert:
Yeah, I think that is already existing from of course, starting with 80 applications to one, and then of course data that is involved is growing bigger and bigger. The management of all that data with all the functionalities and what we saw was that we did not have that cafeteria let's say 10-15 years ago, it may be a little bit started already, so the bigger companies, maybe they already already had something for that.

But I think 10-15 years ago, it was starting to get more important and I think it's a combination of its push and pull, right? It's having the requirements from the customers and they have all kinds of demands of how the system should act. And you sometimes see that they are overdemanding, that you have the requirements and you want to have it as perfect as possible. And that is also taking care of an extra dimension to manage that all with within the database structure that you have within that bigger picture.

And it's that push and pull, right? Because it's a combination of course and also now your artificial intelligence that is coming up is also having impact on that complete world. So it's a combination of requirements. And of course the technology that is constantly going to a higher level, which also take care of maintaining more data. More complex things. So I also see it changing because in the beginning when we worked it was all you worked with HR people, and it was very challenging. Because they were not experienced in systems that they had some kind of things in their previous systems and in the current systems and they said "OK, I should do it like that." But then, when you came in with a new system and you bring a complete new world for those people, yeah, that is very. I saw that also it was very, what you call it, threatening for them; for some people.

And then I saw "OK it's important also." Now we see that more and more, we are now involved with IT and also global companies which are much bigger. Having more employees and then you see that the organizations are also better organized with application managers that are taking care for the technical part. Because that was also something I saw that also changed. So that only HR people were there.

But then, year after year, the organizations were enriching also with technical teams. And then of course they need to have some ISVs or suppliers to give them some additional applications, but then we saw that more and more organizations are taking care for some support, some helpdesk, some Technical Support on that as well. For HR also, because HR in the beginning it was not that important, it was your core business. Of course that was very important, and it is very important. But now you see that that has been changed the last 10 years. I think more and more and the world and is is keeps changing on that part as well. I think.

Ivo:
Definitely. Alright. So sort of a general question based on your experience of course. My question is: What is it like to be a consultant in HR Tech?

You know? What do you think are the things you must have have to be successful in this area?

Geert:
Yeah, I think the must have is to keep being challenged. Because when you are focused and you have your products and you don't do anything else for improvement or anything else, then it starts to get boring pretty quickly. And I think what's needed is to keep aligned with the latest technology and we at FourVision are doing a great job on that. To keep on top of the new technologies I think that are coming around us, and that sometimes can be challenging. When you are close to that technology. But it's giving you the challenge, and it's also giving us with the complete company. Also the knowledge and the experience that brought us where we are now compared to 10 years ago.

I think that also for me as a consultant: When the product is there, I also saw a companies where the product is there, we don't do any changes. It's pretty static. That's killing I think. So as consultant in general, and I think when you talk, and you already talked with a lot of consultants, of course in the company. That I think is will be a common answer, I think to have that and to follow up on that and to get those challenges in and keep improving the HR functionality. So you need to have that challenge as a consultant. And also each customer has his own dimension.

Bert was calling that sometime. Each customer has their own dimension and I think we're pretty good in looking to that dimension and trying to make them a happy customer and try to make them and give them the platform that they need, with all the the the technical challenges. And I think that is something that I need and that's my food for moving forward and growing for myself. Growing for the company, for my colleagues and of course for the customers as well.

Ivo:
Yeah, because I think despite the solutions, they come out-of-the-box with certain functionalities. We can add functionality with other web apps, but every customer seems to present a different challenge every time, right? That there is something else that we need to develop, that we need to fix, that we need to solve. That makes it challenging, right?

Geert:
That makes it very challenging. And you see it all the time happen. Most of the customers they say, OK, yeah we want the standard solution. We don't want any customization or changes. And then you will see during time that that always is. Yeah, always is the case. Because it always is the situation that they have the 20% that's different from other companies, and they should take care that that 20% that's different from all other companies, that that should be taken care of for 100%. And that is also challenging, because you can never reach that 100% I think.

Ivo:
I was just thinking of this idea that companies a lot of times are referenced to as a living Organism. And every living Organism is differen. Every company has their own culture, their own way of doing business, their own types of people, positions within the company and all that. Getting to a place where you have a system and HR system that is closed and you put it in there in schooling to work. It's very hard to do, and I think it's probably hard to do for other applications, but you need to adapt to the needs, because it is a living kind of a living organism.

Geert:
Yeah, indeed that is a life. And people trying to deliver as well of course in the organization. From project management level, from key user level, so that's that's always very challenging. And also the team is always screaming... That's I think very important, on what I saw on implementations that you see "OK, what are the people who are populating the project?" Who are those important stakeholders or the sponsors that you have? To connect to them, so that your story that you are telling is going to be clear for all people that are involved? You should take all people with you and you also are involved sometimes in change management. And that's also a challenge for the organizations. Of course, to do that change management and you sometimes already see that "OK, that could be a challenge or a risk"

I think to get all people behind you and that you are in that in that TGV, I will call it, to Paris, but that all people are in. And not that you're already in Paris, and other people are waiting still on the station, in Breda, in the Netherlands. Yeah, that's always how talk with that as a picture. To say, OK, we should take care of that. Also at the customer, also in the organization yourself, but I think that's always challenging as well. To do that change management and not deliver a product to the people that are using it and they never saw it before. That also sometimes happens.

But that's all the politics and the situation in the organization and I think. Of course, each and every organization knows the best and should know the best how they should move forward and which methodology they are using to implement these kind of new systems, because it can also be the case that is needed to have someone saying this is what we are going to use because otherwise no decisions are being made. So that's always a challenge also to see about the actual situation at the customer, how you should change that and that you advise. And not do that with the key users in front of that, but when you are alone with people on that are populating the project, you should give them some advice to say OK, this maybe you should do that in a different way. I think that's that should also be the role of us as a supplier to do a little bit, manage that as well to help them through that change management within the implementations as well.

Ivo:
Definitely. So yeah, you already talked a lot about the challenges you've been seeing over the years. Of course you have a lot of experience with training customers. You're dealing daily with people with different backgrounds, different stakeholders, just like you mentioned. What does that process of training customers, making them use the tool better, or simplifying some tasks maybe? I don't know.

What does that process look like and where do you start, when you think about something as complex as a Dynamics 365 for example?

Geert:
Yeah. OK, I think the important thing when you talk about training. I also do this for a longer period, providing training to end users, key users, partners, whatever. And the important thing there is: What I always say when I'm asked "OK, do you have time for some training?" I always have a few questions immediately. What is the scoping? What is the audience? Do I talk to more technical people? So should it be an HR technical admin kind of training? Or is the audience more on end user perspective? Or are that key user that already have some experience? It's very good to know what my starting point is. What is my audience? What is the experience of the audience?

And I should pick up from the lowest experience. That is my starting level. So important for me to give training is to decide on what's the scope. Of course. What are the topics that should be touched? Which functionality? Is it set up, or is it only functionality? What is the audience? And then I'm making up my mind and then of course I have some some trainings on the shelf and then I can take it and I can tweak the training that is applicable for the audience that I have. And also questions like or when customers are saying "Yeah but we have some people that are not that experienced and nervous to get some training or nervous to work."

When I know that up front, you're going to slow down and not do a training in one day, but then maybe in several days and spread them out and not doing a training from 8:00 to 17:00. But doing a training from 10:00 to 15:00, or 10:00 to 15:30 for example. To not make it a big chunk because on the end of the day everyone is sitting like this and they don't hear. And see they don't see anything anymore. So that is also what I'm always trying to do and also as much as possible, do it in an environment that the audience is also looking at and seeing their own data, and not working with some kind of demo data.

That also works very good because when you are working and we have that when you are working with the demo data of Microsoft with Contoso. Yeah it helps to explain the functionality...

Ivo:
But it's not relatable, right?

Geert:
No, indeed. I also have that. I need hands-on practical data, look at the system, see what we are talking about, and when they see names when they see positions that they recognize and departments. I think it's much better to understand. It's much easier to go through that first part and explain: OK. What are the prerequisites in your system? What should you first define in the system before you can start talking about creating an employee or creating an employment? And that is something that is, I think, very important. And when I look in the training, I also need to constantly screen whether I go too slow, so constant evaluation is also important. To look back to improve for the future. Because you only have a few days for the training. You can also only do that once that that first training that should be good. That should be handing over some knowledge as well.

What I always also say is: the training is step one. But it's much more important that immediately after that training, not wait for a few weeks before you dive into that system. So for me, it's also important that the organization is taking care of an environment, with some data in it, so that immediately after that training they can already play around in the system. Because it's very important to have your guidance to have your quick reference guides to have your training documentation, but also: Practice, practice, practice. And do it all by yourself, because that's the best way to learn.

Ivo:
Practice makes perfect. Yeah, super insightful. This was very nice. Let's looking again. Two last questions. Looking again into these 11 years. Do you have any stories worth telling from this 11 years, you know, challenges that you faced. You know things completely unexpected. I don't know if you have something in your memories or not, but. Yeah, that's my question for you.

Geert:
That's a difficult one, because I have maybe some stories, but I don't think I can tell them. What can I say... Yeah, it's maybe too much that I have in my head and that is popping up in my mind. So that's very difficult for me now to come up with such a story.

But yeah, but in the beginning when we were with a few people in the organization, challenging with all the things that we had, we only had a few customers. And then what I can remember was that, because things were unsure also Bert and Peter, they were working on the product, but it was very small at that time. We were working with four or five people. Then all the things that were very challenging, my first year that I started, they were both gone. So Bert was on holiday. Peter was on holiday and then you didn't have any backup story on that. And then I'm now also mainly involved in licensing. I'm now coming up with that story.

There was a customer, I cannot remember who it was, but the license file expired. Peter was was on holidays. Bert was there and I could reach them, but it was very difficult. They I think Peter was somewhere on holiday in the mountains and I could not reach him so it was very challenging because of course that customer needed to have that expired license to be updated. But it was at that time much more difficult. So we needed to have contact with Microsoft to have some ID and it was all kinds of technical things. So I was all by myself, traveling back and forth to Arnhem at that time and all, and I cannot remember how I did it, but I get some information from Bert and from Peter, but I managed to do that. And that was also reflecting the situation of that time when we were only with a few people and questions popping up, I needed to disturb them on their holidays. I was all by myself. I was not experienced. I was working there, I think for only a few months and Peter was already happy, he said, yeah, I'm happy that you're there.

But that was also a representative for the situation that we were in. Starting with all our functionality. And yeah, being there all by my myself. They trusted me. But yeah, I and I could contact them. But yeah, that is. That is some some story that popped up in my mind, when I look back that I thought yeah that was yeah it was challenging but on the other hand when we look back now I thought yeah that was. That was nice to experience and to see how the organization now grow. And look at the organization where it is now. So that's that's pretty nice to join and to be there in that. In that adventure.

Ivo:
It's indeed. I think in the beginning for all companies, a lot of figuring out things basicall, right? There are no processes. Yeah, you just try to go along and solve things.

Geert:
Yeah. We are testing, making documentation. Doing roll-outs, etc. in one contact. And I had contact with the developers abroad in Romania at that time, where we were starting with. So we had one or two developers in the background. They were starting to help us with with improving the product. So we started with two three developers, who were there to support us, doing some technical stuff. So that is that.

Ivo:
That is a nice retrospective of the company. Looking at it now, you know, you're a pretty upbeat guy, you're funny. You're still very excited about the company, where it stands now. What is your feeling about it? You know, we evolve, we grow, we have more and more people every year. And what is your view now?

Geert:
Yeah, that's a good question Ivo because it's flipping around. That can be different each month. Because a few people left the organization last year and also a lot of people are joined us. And when you see... and in the beginning it was much more. We started with three, five, eight, ten, fifteen. But at some point I was in Arnhem and in the beginning we were having dinner with a company meeting and we had three or four people and we were going to a restaurant and we were chatting and chit chatting and that was our company meeting. But at certain points, I was in Arnhem, I looked in the room and the space where we have their company meeting. The whole room was packed with people. Also people from the US and people from India were joining.

And sometimes you feel yourself a little bit lost in your company. Where should I go? In the beginning, I knew what Peter was doing, what was Bert doing? What was he busy with? We shared that. And now I see that a lot of things are happening and you cannot follow in detail anymore what is happening in the organization. And that can sometimes be very difficult, that you feel yourself a little bit lost in your own company.

Ivo:
Yeah it can be overwhelming.

Geert:
Yeah, it can sometimes be overwhelming indeed. That's the right word. And then... it's also nice to be here. I would not have missed it for the world, so that's the other part. So, but sometimes it can be strange, overwhelming. So what is happening? I think OK, and in the beginning I had day by day, hour by hour, contact with Bert and Peter. That's not happening anymore because they are fully thrown in the company and they are on management level, and they need to give direction to the company and they don't have time to have a chit chat with you and to inform me about the things that are going on.

That completely changed compared to the beginning of that time. So now you hear from other colleagues.

Ivo:
Yeah, I can't even imagine, I can't be in your shoes and see, well, you know when when we had that Christmas... not at Christmas, but when we got together in the hotel a few months when everything was open, I can't even imagine being in your shoes like you've been there when they were only 5 and it was like 30 something people there and they're like 'I know some of these faces, but not all of them.' So yeah, I can't imagine.

Geert:
Yeah, that's a nice experience. They don't take that away from me anymore, so that's yeah, that's what I have in my in my luggage now and it has been a great journey. I'm repeating myself. But that is, but that's what I what is impacting you, and it can sometimes be. Yeah, sometimes it's struggling you and it's making you go back to the past and say, OK, those were nice times when we were with only a few people and we were a team, but what I see now and the commitment that I see when I was there with only five to ten people. And the commitment that I see from all people that are now joining, that's not changed.

So we are still. And I hear that back from all our colleagues, we are still one big family and that is pretty unique I think. How the way how Bert and Peter are running their company, and the way how they organize some stuff. Yeah, that is proving also, so that is a big plus. People who are leaving the organization they also say that. But it's difficult because we were one FourVision family and it will always be our family. That's what people say when they leave the company and they have a big huge challenge to decide to move and to go away from FourVision.

Ivo:
That's good. OK one last question, and I'll let you go. It's regarding the future. You know you're seeing a lot of new requests coming from customers all the time. You've seen the evolution of the tools, what we are building with the web apps. Everything is moving now. Back to F&O, the Dynamics 365 HR. I want to ask you if there are any trends that you can sense in the near future, that is gonna take over HR technologies. Is there something that picks your interest.

Geert:
Yeah, I don't think that something is going to take over. I think it's "plus plus plus". I think all the things where we bump into. I think the Plus will be, and that's what we are already starting with, and we have that Microsoft platform that is out of the box available. You buy your license, you plug it in and it's there and you populate it and it's there. That's the same for our web apps. And I think, still we have technology that is keep coming and we should always look... and I think not everything, because in the beginning those power apps we saw that: "OK. What's going to happen with the power apps?" But then after a while it is changing but I think our strength should be to look at all the technology that is available, make the right decisions and make the right connections.

And not take, I think everything what's in because we have our Microsoft Teams and everything is integrated into each other. But it can also take care that you are completely lost in your own organization as well, right? With using all the technologies and use that all in full. I think it's good to take the right technology and put that in if that is needed for the complete solution that we are working on.

Ivo:
I think otherwise. I think. Otherwise you go back to 10 years ago when a customer had 80 different applications.

Geert:
Yeah indeed, the history is indeed repeating itself. Yeah indeed, because when you have all these kind of topics and you say, yeah, we must not, we cannot allow us to skip that or something else? I think we should do that and not picking all the tools that are there, that are being made important and launched and this is the the tooling that we need to use for. And that's also what always what we did in the company: trying to change and transform into and following the policy and following the products that Microsoft were providing. And that's a challenge already

Then, when they give all and bring up all kinds of technologies, I think that should be the art of picking and packaging pocketing the right technology and put that all together and see if it's feasible for us to put that in our platform and to offer that. And also important is of course listen to what our customers have to say. And that's always what we did. What is happening in the world; in the HR world? Because that's also important.

When you use technology that is completely out of line with within the HR world, I don't think we should use that because it's there and we should be following all the technologies.

Ivo:
Yeah, it's not using technology for the sake of technology, but actually it should have some meaning to the customer, you know.

Geert:
Yes and add value to it, and that's always what you should focus on. Because then you are getting lost in your own application maybe or in your own not in your application, but in your own world and your own platform that you were building.

Ivo:
Yeah, absolutely well here this. This is it. That's all I had to question you. Maybe you know you can think about some of those stories and come back another time to tell us some funny stories about FourVision. I'm sure people listening out there would like to know some. I hope you enjoyed it.

Geert:
Yeah I enjoyed it but it was sometimes yeah it was hard to see "OK, what did I tell" and then and I had some introduction but it was very nice to do and then having that platform in a way to look back a little bit also and to take some time for looking at it in another way and share it with you all.

Ivo:
Good, I really enjoyed it. I think people listening will get a great a great learning about FourVision this one so I really appreciate your time. Once again for people at listening I will see you next week on another episode. Thank you.

Geert:
OK!