HR Vision Podcast #44 – Learning and Development ft. Britt van de Weerd

Ivo:
Alright. So this. Hello there. Welcome to Episode 44 of the HR Vision podcast. Today we'll talk about learning and development, and for that we have with us Britt van de Weerd. How are you doing today?

Britt:
I'm good, thanks. How are you doing?

Ivo:
I'm doing great. Thank you so much for coming on. Britt is our Learning and Development Manager. Her career has been filled with diverse experiences. Something that we'll probably discuss, but focusing very much on training, learning and development in the last four years. So today, that's what we'll talk about. We'll discuss the importance of internal learning and development and its benefits forganizations. So Britt, you're ready?

Britt:
I'm ready, yes, let's go ahead Ivo.

Ivo:
Alright, good, good. So let's start with you, right. Let's just, Give us a small introduction about you and your professional background. Let's start there.

Britt:
Yeah. OK. So yeah, you already introduced me as Britt, my name is Britt van de Weerd. Learning and Development Manager at FourVision and I live in the Netherlands. I started with FourVision more than half a year ago, and my main responsibility at FourVision is taking care of the FourVision Academy. So The Academy is a place, a learning platform for our people to develop themselves and also a learning way of giving training. So that's also a main responsibility of me, giving training, training hard skills, system training, but also soft skills -thinking of communication training.

Ivo:
Alright, alright. So let's go back a bit, right. As I mentioned in the beginning. You have a very diverse experience, so I guess you really started focusing on learning and development in the last four years or something like that as I snooped around on your LinkedIn. So that's why I know it. So yeah, so tell me a bit about that. How this field attracted you and why did you start focusing on it?

Britt:
Yeah, interesting question. Yeah. So yeah, it came naturally, honestly. I don't have a background in learning and development or HR, but I got the opportunity to deliver training at some point. And when I delivered training, to the people at that time. I saw that people were inspired by what I was saying and also I saw them growing when giving training and that feeling that I got from that training. Wow, great feeling. I really loved it. And for me that was the point where I thought, hey this is what I want to do in my career. Well, yeah, I do have a personal quote. Well, not personal. I think it's a quote that you also know, Ivo. But it says teamwork makes the dream work. That's really a quote that I can almost use daily because I feel and I believe that without people you are nowhere. And by delivering training, yeah, you're never too old or too young to learn. So for me, getting the best out of everything gives me the best feeling in the world. So yeah, that's how I yeah, got to do training now.

Ivo:
Alright, alright let me, let me try just to get a bit a bit deeper there in a sense. So you didn't have any previous knowledge? Maybe a passion for learning, definitely, I guess? And a passion for also educate people, right? So when you got there to that point of setting up trainings and all that, did you get any training yourself on how to do it? Did you investigate how to do it? Did you educate yourself? How did that happen?

Britt:
Luckily I was not alone in there. No, it's not something that you can do automatically. I really feel, that you need to learn it. I do have a certain interest in how people learn as they go, how to move people, how to inspire them. But also tailoring a story and just bind people with me. Taking them with me on board and go ahead wherever you need. And as a trainer you can tell a story, but if people are not interested in what you're saying. Yeah, you can talk with a bunch of people, but they're not following you. So I think you, you need to have certain characteristics in order to get there. And once I was selected to be a trainer, I was taking in how do you develop a training. How do you take all learning elements into consideration? Because there is a lot of things that you can do, a lot of things that you can teach, but it's. Yeah. It's a good way of how to see what is necessary to do in a certain training, because there are a lot of options. So by developing training, by delivering training, that's the way how I teach and also teach myself. Because yeah, it makes me improve my training by doing.

Ivo:
That's the best way indeed.

Britt:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ivo:
Alright, before we go a bit more into the learning and development area and its benefits and all that. I don't think you've worked before on an HR kind of company and this is a very specific kind of, it's HR technology right. So what are your first impressions, did you discover things that you got interested in or not really?

Britt:
Yeah. Well, OK, fun, fun question. Well, of course, the HR IT technology industry is, is really rapid. It's really competitive. And me as a person, I like a certain dynamic and a certain. Yeah, stress level. And also I see that we're constantly innovating that there's so much to learn and to discover. So it's a roller coaster, yes, but for me very attractive to work in. Yeah.

Ivo:
Alright, alright, let's then move to learning and development. I would like to get some of your, general thoughts on it. So what do you think is the impact that a proper learning and development strategy can have on people's growth and business success?

Britt:
Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying a proper learning and development strategy?

Ivo:
Yes. Who knows what is a proper. Yeah.

Britt:
So yeah, that's my first question. I believe that a proper learning and development strategy is really specific to every company. And that it needs to be in line with the business goals, but also a company culture. That you need to be clear on what kind of message you want to deliver to all stakeholders. Because it's, learning and development is for internal purposes but also externally you have a lot of stakeholders on board. And next to that, a proper learning and development strategy needs to be supported by management. If you're not being supported by that, I think it could be a struggle to let learning and development succeed within a business.

Ivo:
Yeah. Do you think? Do you think it's better to have something, than not have anything in place? Even if you don't have the support but you have some kind of training. Even if it's not completely aligned with the business goals in the beginning or something like that. Do you think it's still important to have something than not have anything?

Britt:
Well, I think you need to start somewhere. And that's really my opinion on this. And I think if you do have something and you're starting with something that's along the line of, you know where to go and where to head to. And I think by talking to people, defining the business needs and discovering what really the need is from management and also the people themselves brings you in the good direction. So I think it's better to start somewhere than not starting at all. No.

Ivo:
OK. Let let me just follow up on that very quickly. If you don't have anything and you need to start somewhere, would you start with the knowledge that you have already in the company? Like hard skills or things that are related to the processes or the products that the company delivers. Would you start with that? Or would you go on a path that maybe you find easier? Which is soft skills, for example effective communication, or something like that. How would you start just in a glimpse?

Britt:
Well first I would say, what are the hard skills that people need to do? So what do they need to perform? What skills do they need to have? And then you can think of what kind of goals fits that. So what kind of goal do you need to achieve in order to let people do that? And by doing what kind of exercise does fit and how do you get them into that thinking. So before actually going to hard skills, break it up into smaller bits and smaller actions and think about what kind of exercises do fit. But also what soft skills do fit, because it's a really good combination in hard skills and soft skills that you need to establish or to develop in order to get somewhere. So break it up into smaller bits in order to get there.

Ivo:
Yeah. All right. Great insight, I think. Good, good. So let me know about your take on the adoption of learning and development processes. You already said it's better to have something than don't have anything. You've seen some challenges, right. So yeah, so I would like you to talk a bit about that, you know, by starting something like this or on the adoption of a learning and development process.

Britt:
Yeah, and talking about challenges, yes, I think setting up learning and development within the company definitely brings challenges. If you need to start somewhere, and I just mentioned you need to start somewhere, just do it. But you don't want to do it all at once because I have seen the challenge, that companies want to do it all at once. We all have that dot on the horizon and even if it's a personal goal or a company goal, we want to go somewhere. But again, what small steps do you need to take in order to get there? And talking about that, for example, we're going to walk 100 miles say you and me Ivo. Yeah, and you are doing 20 miles a day. So that means that you're walking five days in a row, for example. And I thought, hey, I want to break the record. I want to go as fast as I can and the first day I walk 40 miles. But the next day I need a break because I'm too tired. I'm too exhausted. I thought that I could do it. Well, I walked 40 miles, but I needed the second day break and then the third day. Again I thought, hey, let's walk 40 miles. But I didn't reach that goal because I was still too exhausted. My feet and legs were hurting. I got blisters on my feet or toes, whatever happened. So in order to get that 100 miles, you got it in five days, 20 miles each day. And I got with ups and downs. I completed it, but not in a steady way, in a structured way. And I'm referring to a great book that I read on Jim Collins, 20 mile March. I really recommended everyone to read it because that really helps in breaking it down in smaller steps by not doing it all at once. It really helps you to do it at your own pace and do what suits the company to set up a good learning and development. So it's a bit of a metaphor that I'm using because I also want to go as far as I can. I want to do it all at once. But thinking of that, do it in a structured manner to get where you want to go to that dot on the horizon.

Ivo:
Got it, got it. As you were talking, I was just thinking that, if you do it in a steady way you probably get to the end without any or with less scars. And scars being a metaphor as well, right. You don't get to the end. So exhausted, so tired of that training or of that walk. Right. So I think that's a, that's a good point. Did you ever have a challenge from the other side? From the people taking the training? Did you ever have a challenge like people not believing this is really necessary or saying that I'm sorry but. This is really not for me. When you have already the word of the manager saying no, they should take it because it's good for them. Did you have any sort of those challenges as well before?

Britt:
Yes, of course. I think every trainer does recognize that and let's say like difficult people in training, how to deal with this. And I think it's more about explaining why is somebody attending a training and if that certain person doesn't believe that he or she does not need to be in training. Then I would say, hey, let's discuss it further one-on-one. Or I would go to the manager and explain, hey, this person is not aware of and then you can start the conversation. Because if a person doesn't open up for a good or proper training, it does not make sense to deliver that training. So my advice is always to have a good awareness of why you're doing this training. And get set good expectations. What are you going to learn? But sometimes also what are you not going to learn. In order to set that good direction of where you're heading to. So when you're training, always start with the goal. Why, and what are you going to learn in a training? And talking about that here, talking about a training in specific, I think also overkill in information. That's my number one. PowerPoints and presentations, bullet points on it, reading information and all that. No, you can do it in a different way. It's about thinking of what learning methods are suitable for what kind of training and how do you inspire the participants? And also that every learner is stimulated in such a way to really think of it and to raise that awareness. And last but not least. It's not only about training, but it's also about following up on it. The training is raising awareness and get people to think of what they've learned. But how do you follow up with that? It can be in different ways. You can do a one-on-one session or maybe a group session or asking feedback. There are lots of ways to follow up on a training so it's fresh in their minds and knowing how they can practice what you've preached in your training.

Ivo:
Yeah, understood. All right. Let's talk about what you're doing right now. You've been tasked to set up an academy for all our employees at FourVision. So, my question is not exactly the details of this academy and how it is set up, but what do you think is the importance of having such a tool in an organization and how can someone in a different organization can start building one today?

Britt:
Yeah, why an LMS? We do have an LMS system, a learning management system within FourVision. I think every company should have one because it's just a learning platform for every person in particular to discover learning and to see what you can learn. I think it's a good combination of push and pull. So let's say push training, mandatory training, training that you need to accomplish for your role for example, but also pull people towards the system. Let them have a look around. And discover in sort of a library of full of trainings what you can do besides your role and to expand what you're doing. It can benefit you as a person to grow, but also in this case FourVision to help them develop. So a platform for learning, I think that's really a must in every organization. So how did we deal with that within FourVision? Without giving too many details, I think first of all find out what you need because we always talk about the the needs to have and the nice to have, by having a proper list with needs. I feel that it's non negotiable by talking about what you need in an LMS. There are so many software providers of LMS, so how do you choose the right one? And I think by sticking to that needs list is already scratching you down to a lower number of LMS providers. And when talking about implementing an LMS, I think you need to go back to basics, really. How is your company structured? How many legal entities do you have, how many locations, how many people? Breaking it into smaller pieces again. Here it is again. But also the hierarchy of the company. What is the cascade? Who's reporting to who? And why I'm saying this Ivo is that if you are setting up the system in a correct way, you're already, half of the work is already done. Because if you have set up your LMS in such a way that it's fitting your company, then you can deliver and develop content. Because that is also part of an LMS. What kind content do you want to create? What kind of content do you want people to learn and to look at, have a read on? Talking about content, if I look at our LMS for example, we have looked at possibilities in e-learning. What kind of e-learning and fun elements, learning elements are there. For example, we have a quiz functionality in our LMS with all different kinds of questions that you can ask the learner. So not only the multiple choice that we all know but more in a fun way and also reading confirmation. Let's say that you have had a mandatory read eval. You can tick off the box saying, hey, I've read and understood that the information, I absorbed it. And I say, hey, now I can go further with my learning. So for us and FourVision, that was really a need.

Ivo:
So it's important to track your progress. That's what you were just saying. Yeah.

Britt:
Yeah, yeah. Because an LMS is also about tracking and maintaining your progress. For me as learning and development manager need to track whether some people still need to do training. But also for managers getting their team into training, where do they need to grow? What are their personal goal settings? So yeah, important to have an LMS and again very company specific in what the possibilities are. So have a good look around in what all is possible.

Ivo:
I see. You were talking about content just now and I was thinking. Because that happens also with me, I'm in the marketing side and we always talk about products that we don't have, actually, like the expertise about. We know about it, but we are not the ones owning it and developing it. So we need to get content from those people. I guess you do the same right? To involve different stakeholders depending on the courses. I know that it's still in the early stage, I'm aware of that. But it's important also to involve different stakeholders to get the proper content into the trainings, right?

Britt:
Yes, that's really important because an LMS is providing a way to learn, but the real content you get from your own people. And that's the trick on how to deliver content in such a way that it sticks with people. And not that it's one ear in and one ear out, let's say it like that.

Ivo:
Yeah. Just another curiosity. I'm sorry, but for example, do you see together with someone that has been giving training to new people joining. For example, do you see through a training they gave just to get a feeling of what are they saying? What the types of content are that might be in there. Do you do something like that or do you go directly to the manager of the position to try to understand what is important to go in there?

Britt:
I think it's a combination of both. Talking about going to a manager, yes. Define what the business needs are, but I think it's far more important to sit with the team member itself to see and understand what really happens in order to deliver a practical training. Because I can talk about theory as much as I can. I can talk about models and people that are inspiring, but as long as it's not practical. I think what is then the sense of deliver training. So yeah, a combination of both. Moreover, go to the team member, yeah.

Ivo:
OK. That's very interesting. Just one last thing that picked my attention. Would you, for example go to someone that is already in the company for some time? Just to find if there are gaps there of learning. You know, what was missing when you joined, what was missing on the training that you received? Do you do that as well? Is that something that you ever considered? Maybe I'm giving up ideas here, I don't know.

Britt:
Good question. I think I always go back to how did training go, to improve yourself because I feel like training is always ongoing. It's always evolving and developing. Even if it isn't the content, then it is a way of how to deliver content. So I think there's always a way of improvement. Standing still for me means that you're moving backwards instead of going and moving forward. So I think, within learning and development you need to have feedback from every stakeholder at all times because that's the best way to deliver a training that suits the business needs and to really get people interested in learning. And for me it's the best way that people can walk out of a training, even if it's online training. And thinking of, hey maybe I already knew this content but for me it's a refresher. Or that I've inspired them and that they know how to work practical wise with the content I've just given them. So that's really my goal.

Ivo:
Yeah, it's a big feature. You are building a big puzzle with all this information how it can be the best fit possible. Cool. All right. Let's look a bit into the future. There of course, you talked about the platform, the the learning management system. Those systems are also evolving all the time. It's technology, they get more and better features a lot of times. Is there any trends or developments, new developments, that you think are coming to learning and development that you find interesting?

Britt:
Well, what I what I find interesting is that. Yeah, we're talking about the future. We're going back a little bit. That it's not about the number of completions. For instance, going to the future is more about performance. Performance driven learning not as far as how many completions that you've done, but about the speeds which you learn and about applying what you've learned. So again, practical wise, what you can do with it. So not, let's say. Hey, I need to do 4 trainings, OK, done, done, done, done and then that's that. We go a little bit deeper with that. And talking about trends, talking about the way that we're now delivering training online, e-learning but also still face to face. Try to see what looks best for your company, what fits best. It's not from today anymore that we deliver 8 hours training all day because people get full with information. So try to see what is best for your company. Break it up again into smaller bites, that's really the trends. But also make it personal and deliver it in such a way that people can do it at their own pace. By having an LMS and tracking down how you're doing, that's an ability that gives us the opportunity to learn at your own pace. And saying, hey, I do have half an hour left so let's log in again and see what I can do. And follow up on your training maybe the day after or next week, I don't know. But it's not every information crammed into 8 hours and then you walk out the door in your stuff and you're full. You're exhausted. No, that's really a new trend within learning and development.

Ivo:
I see you talked about e-learning there. I guess you have experience with both, probably because of the pandemic as well and then after the pandemic or even a bit before. Because I know you were already working on that a bit before. Do you see differences? Do you still prefer I guess. Do you have a preference on e-learning or in presence in person or do you think both are useful? Depends on the context and the type of training you're talking about.

Britt:
I think yes, so for example, right now I'm giving communication training. Talking about communication verbally and non verbally. For me, of course I do want to be present in a surrounding. In a training area where I can see people, read people and see how they're acting they're doing because you talk about verbal and non verbal communication. Talking about e-learning and systems e-learning. For example, how our products at FourVision are working. Then I think yeah and more a proper way to do this. So like you were saying, it depends on the type of training, the type of goal that you have for the training and also what do you want that the learner knows after following the training. So what do they need to do?

Ivo:
Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. I'm sorry, but I'm going to, I'm going to bother you with one more thing about you.

Britt:
No worries.

Ivo:
No, it's just I think it's very interesting is that. A lot of times training and company set up training and it's like. Yeah, you just need to do this. And you do it and you do the four courses and then after that it's like yeah, there's no application. And that was a very good point to make. I guess my question would be. How do you see that going? From my perspective, it should be aligned between all stakeholders. The people that are learning, the people that are giving the trainings are setting them up and the managers. They are proposing their teammates to do that training so there is a clear alignment between the goals that were set. And making sure that we need these type of trainings to put these people in this learning path, in this development path, in this performance path. So how do you? How do you achieve that? You know, I guess you spoke a little bit about it. It is of course knowing exactly what are the the requirements, what are the means within the company. But I guess there's a lot of alignment to be made between all the people involved, right?

Britt:
I think after giving a lot of training. Let's talk about that a certain topic is a training in this case and you have decided with your manager. The training is not only delivering content to get back from the participants, because often in trainings you hear a lot of this and that's and you can talk with the manager about that. So not only about how did the training go, how did that specific participant do and what did I find of this and that, but also talk about what did I get back from them, because in the training you need to create a safe environment. Where they feel that they can talk and be honest and really have the opportunity to learn and that they really can say anything within that training. So I think it's good to give feedback to a manager or a trainer. Saying, hey, this is what I've heard, this is what I learned, can you do something with that? And sometimes it means that we need to create a coaching session or a change your training. It can be all different kinds of outcomes. And by talking about with every stakeholder, it's very important to keep them all aligned within a training. So it's not only saying, hey Britt, deliver us the training for 100 people and then that's that's. No, always do an evaluation afterwards and somewhere in the middle as well. Because you need to be flexible with how you know it's not only the right way, you can go many ways.

Ivo:
Very interesting, yes. I think that feedback is also a very important part, definitely. Very good, very good, very insightful. I'm gonna let you go.

Britt:
OK.

Ivo:
But before we go, I would like just for you to say. If you have people in charge of learning and development in their companies or start thinking about it, how would you convince them? Like, do it! Why? Why does it matter?

Britt:
Well, again, teamwork makes the dream work. I'm coming back to my quote.

Ivo:
Yes.

Britt:
Without people you cannot do your work properly as a business. You need your people in order to deliver a product or a service or whatever your company stands for. And investing in your people is the best way to grow your business, but also to grow your people. To have them engaged into your company and to guard your values that you have as a company. Yeah, I can talk a lot about that Ivo. But for me, without people you're nowhere. So yeah, you need to start with that and putting your people first.

Ivo:
Alright, I think that's a great note to end this, this episode with Britt. Thank you so much for coming on. This was a very interesting conversation. I always enjoy our conversations by the way. So thank you.

Britt:
Thank you, Ivo. It was good to have the opportunity to come in your podcast. Thank you for this.

Ivo:
All right. Thank you so much, Brett. Everybody listen out there. Thank you for listening. And. We'll see you next time.

Britt:
OK. Thank you. Bye.

Ivo:
Alright, Britt. Thank you so much.